Payment methods?

  • #83

    You don't have to respond to this, because I found the ignore function.. You're being hypocritical. Claiming that I won't see it in any other way is exactly what you're doing. "I'm right and you're wrong, no matter what you say" is all you're getting across. Not being a jerk at the moment, just being honest. I've shown your posts to a few friends and they agree that you're being obstinate and close-minded. You give no evidence or real examples, just opinions and state them as if they were fact.

    Quoting you "Also what I'm saying is for them to not make hats for the microwasteoftime store which promotes pay to win. They need to be making raids and developing the game for the people who are committed. " If you read above, I say they're being lazy because making a hat is easier than making a raid or dungeon. If you're going to use it as an example, at least read the content that you're replying to and not just repeat it in your own words.

    To the admins: I apologize for the waspish response, but I don't respond well to being told "You're wrong because I THINK you're wrong, so I'm right". I won't be arguing with this poster any more... not sure why I degraded to his level for so long.

    Last edited by ssj782: 4/29/2013 8:11:59 AM

  • #84
    This is a debate topic, essentially. Debate was to be expected. It really didn't devolve beyond the subject of the topic. So I am not sure there was much to really apologize for. I think you just took things to personally. When everything here is targeted at the question of "What Payment Method You Support" essentially. I think you took it too personally, as you've been the only person siding for Micro's since this topics inception pretty much everything has been directed at your posts, since they are the only thing keeping the debate going. I really don't think it is anything personal toward you. I couldn't really anyone saying to you directly "Shut up your wrong, I'm right" before you started asking about the ignore feature because you didn't want to stop debating, but wanted to squelch the opposition. (If its there just quote it to me in PM, and I'll admit I am wrong, just didn't see it on a skin). So, I perceived that reaction as what made posts get personal toward you. Doesn't make them right regardless, I just viewed it as you taking it to that level yourself. Back on topic! How about them hats.
    Last edited by Synthetic: 4/29/2013 12:39:54 PM
  • #85

    "I'm done posting here because you're just going to make more unreasonable statements about why it should be not sub model"

    It's the one that came to mind first, and I don't feel like taking ignore off to read the older posts. I've gotten quite a few people from this forum and a few others that I frequent often tell me I shouldn't "feed the troll", so it's not even close to just me seeing it that way. I didn't expect people to send me posts on the other forums for this one, though... kinda weird.

    The topic stagnated, and I think it was only my stubbornness that kept me here so long. This is actually by far the smallest Wildstar forum I'm a member of, but I only use this name on one other.

    Lol, a friend of mine is following this post and says "You know... People need to learn what proofreading is.". I was thinking about telling him not to expect it, due to playing WoW for 6 years and seeing how people type... but didn't bother.

    Last edited by ssj782: 4/29/2013 2:23:34 PM

  • #86
    Largely, grammar is fine here. I personally can't format my posts by paragraph, as google chrome updated itself and broke it with a buggy release. Is it perfect all around? Not really. Large parts of the forum base are likely not from countries that speak predominantly English. Which is to be expected.

    The topic is stagnated because there's 3-4 arguing for Subscription model, and only you championing Buy to Play/Micro. So yeah, without some of the lurkers joining in on the discussion, or new info. This was a wall we all should have expected to hit eventually, no? Never saw a reason to get angry because the topic had stubborn gamers on either side. (That has never happened on a forum ever before, gamers are totally flexible individuals.)

    Also, the argument stagnated, because the only real arguments going for the B2P/Micro or F2P/Micro are.

    1. It generates more revenue than a sub model. (Based on games with very small user base, most smaller than the pre-advertising beta pool we are working with right now.)
    2. Two or three examples of games that switched models to capitalize on the Micro model because of reasons previously stated.

    That is all we really have going on in this discussion. Nearly every argument has boiled down to those being stated as the main reasons in favor of a Micro model, and counter arguments on a general level between all games for some other points brought up like community.

    I think we need some fresh facts in to make a strong case for Micro with examples of games that are doing well that are of the same style MMO as we are currently looking at. Which I think is a very big point. You come back to DCUO a lot, but DC has a niche audience in comic books and really doesn't translate in comparison to a fantasy game with no existing fan base, other than those who realize its essentially WoW 2.0 designed by the guys, who made the game during its best era.

    I can't hedge for that side of the fence, since I found Tera incredibly boring, Aion was never very good for a PvE player like myself, SWTOR is Niche as well but closer to the point (SWTOR's F2P Model is terrible in my opinion). LoTRO might be the closest we can get for comparison...

    Now you've resorted to belittling the forum for being new, and small, and the rest of the community for not taking the time to either grammar check, or learn perfect English if it wasn't their native tongue to begin with. Getting an absurd condescending vibe off your last post.
    Last edited by Synthetic: 4/29/2013 10:37:56 PM
  • #87

    It honestly was my friend's comment. He was reading the posts over my shoulder. I wrote in an earlier post that he's nice online, but a jerk in rl. If I can read it (or at least translate it eventually) it's fine. My translation skills grew in WoW enormously. Though I can't completely disagree with him because if I misspell something the forum itself warns me with a red, squiggly line (his is white, for some reason). 

    I agree with your opinions on those games, though. TERA did/is doing well, but I only played it for a while because I found it too slow paced. I had high hopes for SWtOR, but it didn't deliver. I stopped playing pretty early on during it's sub period. AION was a badly done WoW-clone to me, and the flight was atrocious. DCUO didn't seem like a WoW clone, but I probably see it that way because of the combat. You can't call it that because it's not like WoW was the first MMO that made you walk around a world doing quests. Because that would be like saying that all those before were as well. I liked the action combat of DCUO until they made even normal enemies have knockdowns and combo stuns, all while you're actually hitting them (had a few stun me while they were stunned, or even floating in the air from a pop-up). I like the action styles of Dragon Nest and Vindictus, but since they have a quest based system you see those as WoW clones as well? The combat type is what seperates them, and DCUO at least has multiple movement types that change the way you go through the world (with their own types of races). Vindictus and Dragon Nest combat was hack'n'nslash with combos and aiming for certain characters.

    And I only said that this was the smallest forum I'm active in. If I thought it was a huge problem I wouldn't post, now would I? It's truth, since the member list has less than 1300 people. I use multiple forums because a lot of people don't. I want to see different opinions about multiple issues, and I've even used this forum to answer questions on others that were asked... and vice-versa.

    What I said earlier about the "arguments" not using any facts but stating their opinions as though they're facts still stands, though. Read through some of the posts and you'll see a TON of repeat in everyone against my posts, and in mine as well. That's not a debate, it's a stagnant clash of stubborn. I wasn't being condescending. Though I don't care what anyone thinks of me as long as I get actual thought or input on the topics instead of just repeating the same lines over and over. I'm the type that will play an MMO with someone I don't like as long as they're contributing. It's just a game, and not rl. If I can get through something by using the help, then what does it matter?

    To end this: You're right that the two main points are that B2P+sub makes more money, so should give enough revenue for more content. Which I agree with.

    The second on the other hand, is that sub-less games have a worse community... that one, I don't agree with at all. I played WoW for too long to think being a sub game makes even a slightly better community. In most of the F2P's that I've played, Only 2-5 people are being jerks during the run of a whole day, and most don't say anything. I like that over the hundreds of trolls in WoW trade, and the dozens an hour in SWtOR when you're in a main hub.

    Last edited by ssj782: 4/29/2013 11:10:21 PM

  • #88
    Well community now a days isn't what it used to be. So that in itself is really a moot point all around. (I'm the one that brought it up, but after playing a few weeks on WoW I realized how much every game has really devolved.) I never see the same faces twice any more, with flying mounts and max levels, I never see anyone in the world anymore. With raid finder, I don't even have to look to pug stuff in trade chat in order to get geared up for guild stuff. The only thing in this game I interact with now, is my auction house war to gain control of the Herbalism market. I have my guild, sure, but those are real life friends who I am on skype with anyway.

    Every other game hs been the same for me, so, I sincerely hope that a sense of community is something that is brought back with Wildstar, I already know that they are shipping with a dungeon finder for small group content, which is fine with me. Five mans was never where I developed friendships. I just hope that world actually feels like a living, and breathing world.

    I apologize for saying that you were being condescending, its just how it read to me.

    So if we want this topic to get lively, we have to bring new light to it.
  • #89

    I've actually met quite a few of my WoW friends during 5 mans. During certain expansions, skill was a large factor, so I would usually talk to people that did extremely well in them, and I even got invited to guilds that way. If you take it in small pieces, the community of an MMO can be good. But that's only in small numbers of people, with a set of guidelines to follow. I've been kicked from about 4 guilds for the exact same reason... Someone asked what I thought. I'm not very good at lying, or sugarcoating. I generally say exactly what I think. It's made me good friends, but more enemies... People lie when they say they want the truth, for the most part.

    As you said earlier, there isn't much to add to this post anymore. We had two sides (mine was horribly understaffed) with opposite opinions and we ran through the little bit we could. So I'm going to start a thread on what makes a good/bad community. Wonder what kind of people will respond, and what kind of answers/reasons they'll give. I actually look forward to a good debate and hate when it boils down to "nuh-uh, uh-huh".

    Edit: BTW, Synthetic? Please stop making my best friend laugh. He read what you and then I wrote and is finding it extremely funny that I'm being blamed after quoting him.

    Last edited by ssj782: 4/30/2013 8:22:35 AM

  • #90
    I feel ya SSJ, I've had similar experiences over the years. Detracted from 5mans leading to anything community wise with the introduction to cross server dungeon groupings, and the fact that none of the 5 mans require anything more than a zerg now a days. So its hard to recognize skill there anymore. Since this is dragging off topic though, I'll shut my big mouth until we get something new and relevant to talk about. (Not likely until carbine announces their business model.)
  • #91

     I sincerely hope that a sense of community is something that is brought back with Wildstar

     I played WoW for 7y, been succesfull in PvE and PvP, but key to all that was community i had honor to live and play with, wich sadly we cant find in any MMO's these days.

    Good ppl to play good game ftw.

    P.S. It is offtopic, i know, sorry.

  • #92

    Huh, interesting how this also became a topic on community as well. I'm in full agreement with those who believe the lifeblood of a good game that lasts a good long while is a good community. I'm personally one of those people who enters a game to play with friends and make friends, that's one of the key elements that attracts me to the MMO genre, is that potential. I'm also someone who has played across various games and generally, I've found that the communities are the same sort of mix. Jerks are abundant in just about every community but decent people out-due them, rudeness is simply more noticeable. 

    But that's not going to stop the likes of me from being an obnoxiously talkative git.

    But to the original topic: a big grin split across my face when I read Synthetic mention that there's currently only one person holding up the flag for micros. Well, matey, I'm here to represent that side of the populace. I've got nothing against putting money into a hobby and supporting its creators; when I was a kid I would use my allowance to buy cosmetic items for a dress-up avatar on a social site called Gaia Online. I did that then, I'm willing to do it now. I've just personally got a problem with forking out a chunk of money every month and why? I'm college student and we're currently in a skizzy economic depression; budgets are tight and income isn't exactly stable. That predicament isn't limited to students, as it were and with situations unpredictable, not everyone can manage paying yet another bill (which a P2P game will basically become) and sooner or later, they'll drop it.

    All the friends I've gotten excited about this game have a similar story, we just don't have those kinds of resources.

    B2P with micros opens up another avenue for us to support the game that doesn't wring us of the last penny we have every month. I'd be more than happy to pump in cash when I can and my budget allows and I know for a fact others will do the same.

    I've actually been lurking on this thread for awhile and was talking to a friend (who got dragged into WildStar thanks to my constant babbling) about it. We both play GW2 and we're both students in creative fields (a filmmaker and wannabe author) so our wallets parallel each other and from our experiences, we'd say micros bring in more money and more players since it makes it more accessible. It's the games that we're willing to give a chance to since it's less of  scar of our checks and no loss if it doesn't work out. It also means people won't have to pay a monthly fee per account, which means someone will be convincing friends and family to be playing.

    If any of you have heard of Perfect World International, it's an F2P with a cash shop. Yes, that game is borderline pay-to-win since the leveling is slow as molasses and the only way you're going to hit a high level in a decent amount of time is y buying EXP boosts. They also cripple you with a small inventory that you have to pay real money to unlock. The publisher has also rigged the in game economy so everything is unbearably expensive. I trust that Carbine won't do such a stupid thing of course, but the point is PWI's cash shop was massively expensive yet viable. A new mount is released at midnight and it costs fifty bucks. By ten in the morning, the servers are lagging because everyone and their granny has bought one. The point: people are more willing to pay when they're not forced.

    I guess my reasoning is that micros are consumer friendly, a good source of revenue, and they make the game more accessible which means more people able to play which in turn creates a bigger playerbase which generates even more money.

    Just my thinking as it were.

  • #93

    Quote from WilyKat »

    Huh, interesting how this also became a topic on community as well. I'm in full agreement with those who believe the lifeblood of a good game that lasts a good long while is a good community. I'm personally one of those people who enters a game to play with friends and make friends, that's one of the key elements that attracts me to the MMO genre, is that potential. I'm also someone who has played across various games and generally, I've found that the communities are the same sort of mix. Jerks are abundant in just about every community but decent people out-due them, rudeness is simply more noticeable. 

    But that's not going to stop the likes of me from being an obnoxiously talkative git.

    But to the original topic: a big grin split across my face when I read Synthetic mention that there's currently only one person holding up the flag for micros. Well, matey, I'm here to represent that side of the populace. I've got nothing against putting money into a hobby and supporting its creators; when I was a kid I would use my allowance to buy cosmetic items for a dress-up avatar on a social site called Gaia Online. I did that then, I'm willing to do it now. I've just personally got a problem with forking out a chunk of money every month and why? I'm college student and we're currently in a skizzy economic depression; budgets are tight and income isn't exactly stable. That predicament isn't limited to students, as it were and with situations unpredictable, not everyone can manage paying yet another bill (which a P2P game will basically become) and sooner or later, they'll drop it.

    All the friends I've gotten excited about this game have a similar story, we just don't have those kinds of resources.

    B2P with micros opens up another avenue for us to support the game that doesn't wring us of the last penny we have every month. I'd be more than happy to pump in cash when I can and my budget allows and I know for a fact others will do the same.

    I've actually been lurking on this thread for awhile and was talking to a friend (who got dragged into WildStar thanks to my constant babbling) about it. We both play GW2 and we're both students in creative fields (a filmmaker and wannabe author) so our wallets parallel each other and from our experiences, we'd say micros bring in more money and more players since it makes it more accessible. It's the games that we're willing to give a chance to since it's less of  scar of our checks and no loss if it doesn't work out. It also means people won't have to pay a monthly fee per account, which means someone will be convincing friends and family to be playing.

    If any of you have heard of Perfect World International, it's an F2P with a cash shop. Yes, that game is borderline pay-to-win since the leveling is slow as molasses and the only way you're going to hit a high level in a decent amount of time is y buying EXP boosts. They also cripple you with a small inventory that you have to pay real money to unlock. The publisher has also rigged the in game economy so everything is unbearably expensive. I trust that Carbine won't do such a stupid thing of course, but the point is PWI's cash shop was massively expensive yet viable. A new mount is released at midnight and it costs fifty bucks. By ten in the morning, the servers are lagging because everyone and their granny has bought one. The point: people are more willing to pay when they're not forced.

    I guess my reasoning is that micros are consumer friendly, a good source of revenue, and they make the game more accessible which means more people able to play which in turn creates a bigger playerbase which generates even more money.

    Just my thinking as it were.

    Iam sorry but GW2 is a big exemple of how B2P dosent work, their dungeons were broken/bugged too easy, and there was no point in doing them since it was very easy to cap your gear trough crafting.

     

    they took 4 ever to add new content, and i compeltely lost intrest in game, 15$ per month is less then 1 dolar per day, i understand some people might not be able to afford that, but how can someone who cant afford that has a PC good enough to run the game at dungeons/raids at 30> FPS?

     

    Also Micros always get in the way of game design, the game has to be designed with micro transactions in order for players to buy them, even if it is cosmetic its is not cool.

     

    Games like League of Legends get away with that because they have no persistent content,  once the match is gone so is all progress, and there is no other way to obtain skins then trough cash, on MMO's where you get your looks from content, its not fair to have your favorit look a cash item.

     

    Iam sorry you cant afford to play the game and be a part of the comunity, but the point of an entry level is exactly that, is making people wanting to make their money's worth, and that usually ends up on  building a better comunity

  • #94

    Quote from BonusStage »

     

    Iam sorry but GW2 is a big exemple of how B2P dosent work, their dungeons were broken/bugged too easy, and there was no point in doing them since it was very easy to cap your gear trough crafting.

     

    they took 4 ever to add new content, and i compeltely lost intrest in game, 15$ per month is less then 1 dolar per day, i understand some people might not be able to afford that, but how can someone who cant afford that has a PC good enough to run the game at dungeons/raids at 30> FPS?

     

    Also Micros always get in the way of game design, the game has to be designed with micro transactions in order for players to buy them, even if it is cosmetic its is not cool.

     

    Games like League of Legends get away with that because they have no persistent content,  once the match is gone so is all progress, and there is no other way to obtain skins then trough cash, on MMO's where you get your looks from content, its not fair to have your favorit look a cash item.

     

    Iam sorry you cant afford to play the game and be a part of the comunity, but the point of an entry level is exactly that, is making people wanting to make their money's worth, and that usually ends up on  building a better comunity

    Eee, mate, I never used GW2 as an example, all I mentioned is that a friend and I played it because of its accessibility. Also,  how does buggy dungeons have to do with having a cash shop? There are plenty of other games that use them that are not "disappointments". I used PWI as an example of how people are willing to pump money into the game through micros, more than any monthly sub, for aesthetics and other items. I also mentioned how if Carbine did use a cash shop they'd be more responsible with it than PWI. There was no mention of GW2 being an example. lol It's a game I actively play, I'm aware of its mechanical issues but those are connected to ArenaNet not to the micro system.

    Also, you're assuming a lot about a player. Most people do not have high end computers and not everyone does dungeons. Alas, Carbine has stated that their game doesn't take much to run. That already has made the game friendly to those who can't afford to buy the best of the best or update their rig every other year. I'm not sure what you meant with this counter, since it's assuming a little too much.

    How is it not cool or fair...? You're a little vague. But either way, if I am understanding you correctly then I'm confused. If there's a cosmetic item you like in the cash shop, it costs $8. You rather spend 15 bucks a month rather than just those 8 to get the item?

    And plenty of games have made this "better community" point moot. I've played F2P, B2P, and P2P and each time the community was identical. The world/area chats are where the loudest people, who are often rude and uncouth, hang out. And then there's the average player, who is the average person, and on average are people are rather decent and friendly. I don't see how asking for a monthly fee is going to cull the bad eggs because no payment method is going to do that. People are people and even jerks have jobs.

  • #95

    I really hope that wild star dose not have a monthly sub, even though it dose help the development of the game and make it more bug free. I would much rather have something like guild wars B2P and have items that you can purchase in the real money store. I really want to play wild star but i will be just fine settling down with Guild Wars 2 and not pay a Dime other than when you buy the game. But, if the subscription is cheap like a 5 or 8 dollar monthly fee i might be more happy. I wish good luck to the wild star team on deciding a good payment method that everyone will be happy with.

  • #96
    That is more what we are expecting, an 8-9$ sub, which honestly... if you can't afford what, a quarter a day? Then gaming shouldn't really be on your mind. The only fear I have with Micros is that they resort to selling Weapon/Armor skins, XP Boosts, or In Game Currency. This is for good reason. Say they start with a B2P and Micro model, but they have none of these things in game. I would wager a majority of the population wouldn't spend anything on the game to support it unless it gave them a notable benefit. Such as Character Slots, or Inventory slots, or for the love of god chests in game you need keys you buy with real money to unlock. These are all examples of things that could make the game sour in the mouths of many, and yet they are the biggest points of monetization. My only hope is that Carbine will stick to their guns on not selling power, and realize as well that power comes in many forms, not all of which are quantifiable in a dps or healing chart.
  • #97

    Quote from Synthetic »

    That is more what we are expecting, an 8-9$ sub, which honestly... if you can't afford what, a quarter a day? Then gaming shouldn't really be on your mind. The only fear I have with Micros is that they resort to selling Weapon/Armor skins, XP Boosts, or In Game Currency. This is for good reason. Say they start with a B2P and Micro model, but they have none of these things in game. I would wager a majority of the population wouldn't spend anything on the game to support it unless it gave them a notable benefit. Such as Character Slots, or Inventory slots, or for the love of god chests in game you need keys you buy with real money to unlock. These are all examples of things that could make the game sour in the mouths of many, and yet they are the biggest points of monetization. My only hope is that Carbine will stick to their guns on not selling power, and realize as well that power comes in many forms, not all of which are quantifiable in a dps or healing chart.

    lol But this is a game not a yacht club. A gamer's business is playing games, this is a hobby not a club only for the elite. An MMO survives because of of the amount of players and these days, people are deterred by subs. In the early to mid- 2000s it worked because MMOs were a relatively new genre and only the balanced ones came with a monthly fee. But here and now, only games that were established before the economic crash really were able to maintain their hold in the market. Recent games like The Secret World, Star Wars, Tera, etc. that came out with a sub attached to it didn't last and are now B2P. And for those about to argue that they're bad games, their quality is not my point, it's the fact they didn't make it. And this next comment is not meant to be rude or an attack at all but you can afford a sub and that's great, but they have to think about the market and a vast majority, even if they can afford it, won't hand over their money so easily. I remember being in the Tera forums prior and post game release and this same conversation was going on in there. Many said it would never go non-sub and that people who didn't want to play monthly had no business being there.

    And now those that camped on the sidelines saying, "I'm waiting till it goes free-to-play" have come out victorious. Same with their cousins. *eyes SWTOR*

    Actually, I wonder if having B2P and P2P servers would be viable. I'm having fun thinking about how they could pull that off but I reckon it would be a difficult maneuver to pull. But- it would certainly please both parties.

    Alas, I trust Carbine that if they do go B2P their cash shop won't be power rigged. It'll be skins and items for your house. And maybe they can release EXP boosts sometime post launch since it appears Firsts are somewhat of an issue if I read this forum correctly. Also bank access at any point in the game is something else I can see being available. There are plenty of items they can put in shop once the in game society is established that won't be game breaking and simply convenience items.

    On the notable benefit, I'm going to call upon PWI once more. People spend tons of money on clothing skins and dyes (since attire comes in crappy colors to force into paying for pigments) and the colors come in randomized packages and in mystery ink pots. Not only that but you need multiples of the pigment to dye just a piece of your clothing set. Outfits cost about $17 and requires 20 inks in total to dye it. Then considering all the pigments you have buy to get what you need and how many of the wrong color you'd get...it's about $30. More than half of the player pop. above level 40 has these cosmetics and on top of that PW comes out with new fashions every season.

    These items are aesthetics and aesthetics alone, they give you no benefits other than making your character look ~cooler~ than the average player and some spend fifty bucks every season to update their wardrobe, staying on top of the fashion hierarchy.  That attitude isn't limited to PWI population, of course. There's a game I used to play called Fiesta Online that has mounts and fashions for sale in the cash shop. The catch is, those items only last 30 days. You have to keep paying to keep them. 

    And I know these points might be brought up by any reading this response:

    "What if players just buy cash shop items from other players?"

    That's not a problem because where did the seller get the item? They bought it from the cash shop.

    "What if someone doesn't buy anything from the cash shop the entire time they play?"

    They may not contribute money but their presence is beneficial. Having to strings attached attracts people and when people see a high number of players, then that's a bonus. One person may not buy items but some of their friends will and others who are attracted to the game will.

    TL;DR: P2P worked for in ye olde days when WoW was new because sub spoke of quality but those days are gone, games like WoW are established, that's why they remain. Newer games like Tera and SWTOR and all their ilk have gone from fees to B2P/F2P because the numbers willing to fork out monthly are not enough to keep the game alive. And for those worried about what cash shop items would be, Carbine sounds like a responsible team. They'll hold back items and release them later, or have items that are not game-breaking but have some sort of allure (house items, etc.) because paying for bonuses rather than playtime has a more appealing sound to many and that's what you want to keep an MMO alive, not the few but the many. And also that this should be a community, not a club. Your wallet shouldn't define whether you can partake in something for fun. It's a hobby not a social status.

  • #98
    "These items are aesthetics and aesthetics alone, they give you no benefits other than making your character look ~cooler~ than the average player" -- I think it is important to note that this notion is entirely unacceptable from my standpoint. Your character looking cooler should be time invested, not money spent. Even if there is no stats to back up your style, looking epic should be earned not bought.

    Also, I think that a major point with all of the games that have failed that originally tried a P2P model is that those games had no heart and soul. Tera had smooth combat, but was all in all just a pretty Korean style RPG that was never going to do well in the western market. SWTOR had the same issue, the game was pretty and they put effort into story telling at a character level. However it never felt like an MMO to me, and lacked that feeling of a world I could lose myself in.

    Lastly, I feel like goals are a huge part of making a game driving and sucessful, as is raiding. Honestly there has not been a single MMO in recent years that has as much raid content as WoW has per expansion. Let alone over all. The raid content that is there is usually borish and uninteresting due to poor encounter designs. So they have to excel at PvP in order to retain any audience for a long haul but most fail at even that level. So they never made it in a P2P market because their design failed to deliver what a P2P market desires.

    This is where I think Wildstar will succeed. They have Devs who know this, because they worked on the mother of all MMORPGs (No, I am not saying WoW is literally the mother of all MMORPGS, however it is undeniably the most succesfful). So, I would not be surprised to see a sub model coming out of them, or a hybrid model where there is a B2P option with restrictions and a sub option with more features.

    To clarify what I mean when I say "If you can't afford 25 cents a day, gaming shouldn't be a concern for you" that isn't to say. If you can't afford a quarter a day, then Wildstar or MMO's aren't for you. Just gaming in general. I am impoverished. However, I've never once had a problem making bills and keeping my WoW sub up. Also, if you can't afford a quarter a day, then you reallllllllllly need to buy stuff you NEED and not games as a luxury. I understand the escapism aspect that it provides if your life is crap, but in this instance its really better to face your demons and problems than ignore them to slip into a world and leave them to only get worse.

    That said, the only real perfect solution that makes everyone on this subject happy is a Micro/Sub hybrid along the lines of SWTOR, only for the sake of all of you who don't wish to contribute to carbine on a monthly basis, I hope that the freebie model gives you more freedom than SWTOR does. You just run the risk of them choking you with so many restrictions that you get bullied into subbing or quitting if they aren't getting the revenue stream they need off the freeloaders.

    Stuff like not being able to send or recieve mail, use the auction house, get mount training, 1-2 character slots, unable to PM or trade with players privately, unable to join or create guilds, unable to equip top tier quality loot, and things of this nature. Some games employ ALL of the restrictions at the same time to 'Incentivize' micros or subs. So, I just hope you know what you are getting yourself into when you pray for these models. Since this is the risk you run. I hope its never the case, but nothing shocks me anymore.
  • #99

    *whistle* You sound like there's not a doubt in your mind, mate. And you've got fair points but what you see as acceptable isn't viable, at least in today's market.

    Ah, your little spiel about SWTOR has gotten me riled because BioWare as taken an enormous swan dive from grace. They could have done an MMO with amazing story line and still have appealed to the majority of the market but in reality they relied on their "good name" and the brand name Star Wars far too much. Like a crutch. You go onto social networks and say the name BioWare and you get a lot hissing and spitting; basically that company's last chance with a majority of its consumers comes in the form of Dragon Age III but I digress. BioWare isn't the company in question, it's Carbine.

    So to go back to your thoughts on attire from cash shops, you said it's not earned but it is; someone went to work, got their paycheck, typed their credit card number into Carbine's secure system, and gave them a nice little lump of money that helps pay their mortgages and feed their kids. For your contribution to Carbine employee wallets and game content, here's some nifty pixels in the shape of a jacket. So they did earn it, they just spent time earning the "gold" offline rather than online. And don't bring up getting rewards while not in game as an issue, there's rest EXP in WildStar. You get EXP while being offline (in your house), you're not technically earning that EXP, are you? If we go your view at least, if I am understanding it correctly. Place + Time = Reward within that Place?

    Not sure about this point since, aye, WildStar appears to gave hit the mark with their PvP and raiding content but those features alone don't merit a sub. That means we're paying for a feature, not a game and not every person interested in PvP and raiding is part of the group willing to pay monthly fees.

    And I understood what you meant and my point still stands, gaming is a hobby. It's something to do for fun, it's not an exclusive club. Your situation is not the same for everyone and there are too many variables. And even though they can't contribute monthly, they can still help. The game hasn't even come out yet and I've bringing in all my friends and creating fanworks, spreading the word about this MMO. My, my, free advertisement. And once more, WoW was the MMO of its day, at a time when subs were fair and promised quality. But that's not the story anymore. Either way, gaming is a hobby. It's something to do for fun and in your spare time, people without means have spare time too. College students on a tight budget have spare time. Writer-students like me who go to classes, edit their "oh how I wish" novel, and seek out literary agents have spare time. And spare money often tags along and we put that in our hobbies. It's not a yacht club, it's funtime.

    Oh, mate, you know as well as I do that Carbine would be queuing up for the headman's block if they did that. SWTOR got more players with its hybrid model, but it's still stagnant. It's not on the rise and although the pop. is up, there's no new subs. SWTOR failed to be an MMO and it also failed to pick a good solution. It's not a perfect pick, it would courting death. If WildStar comes out and says, "we're P2P and B2P but B2P can't do this or that or that or this". Then they lose an entire market, no one will bite for it and the population will come to a stand still (because today's markets won't take the bait). They also cut off any players from other countries who could contribute when they can but not monthly. If you're response to that is "well then they have no business playing" then I'm going to shrug and tell you that Carbine is trying to run a business and in the MMO scheme, it's player pop and accessibility that gives you the upperhand. If they go with your solution, then they will cut off so much of the potential market and chances for growth. Instead of have 500k they'll have 250k. Raiders and PvP aren't the entire population and not all of them are going to want to fork out, as I said. If that's all that's going to keep this game aloft then it won't be soaring of gilded wings for long.

    Last but not least, you're talking like you have this in the bag already but NCSoft currently does not have any P2P games, in the Western market that is. I don't know enough about Blade & Soul but all their active games here (the Guild Wars series, Aion, and Lineage II) are either F2P or B2P, both with cash shops. The publisher seems to have found a system to their liking, and it's profitable or they would have shut down their servers. So why would they break the mold? Sure, WildStar could be the WoW of the 2010s and take the industry by storm, but the industry has changed since Blizzard asked for fifteen a month.

  • #100
    At the end of the day, we can speculate and hedge our points against each other. It is all for not! I am fairly certain we will be hearing about the business model very soon, as a release date is bound to be on the horizon with the next beta wave. I have faith that Carbine will find a way to satisfy the masses, which is why I am fairly certain there will be an iteration of a subscription in the game, even if it isn't the only way to play.

    As I have said many times over in this thread, I sincerely hope that they never sell you anything through a shop that can be put on your character that is along the lines of their end game looks. They can sell you Tuxedo's, Wedding Dresses, Hilly Billy outfits, or anything along those lines. My stay with the game would be short lived if I spent weeks and months trying to get a Tech Sword off a raid boss for my warrior and when I finally got it, I saw another dude walking around town with a re-colored skin that he bought off the cash shop that looks identical to mine.

    Comparing rest XP to real world money is very flimsy comparison. Rest XP is something that is gained by your in game work as well. You decorate the living hell out of your house after spending hours farming, and then creating your special place and you get more rest XP while offline in your house based on how much love you put into it. So again, rest XP is scaling off your in game efforts and has nothing to do with your wallet, nor is rest XP a tangible visual aspect of your character. I get that their are people out there who can't put in the time to raid or PvP, which is why there is Solo Elder Game content for that crowd. Theres gear for exploring, being a scientist, a settler, or a warrior. There are plenty of ways to get gear without needing to be in the upper echelons of people with free time.

    I wouldn't really consider any of NCsofts titles to be wild successes, and personally a lot of people I've talked to are almost discouraged by NCSoft a lone to such an extent that they may not even try Wildstar for fear of NCSoft's monitization models. Which I can understand. None of their titles have ever really been successful in North America or Europe. Guild Wars 1 was the closest, but it really always dwindled to a niche audience. It was profitable I imagine, but not by much. Server maintenance isn't as expensive as you think it is, creating content is. Hopefully NCSoft doesn't get in the way of Carbine making their business model fair for all, and hopefully NCSoft realizes that Wildstar is an MMO designed as a Western MMO and needs a Western business model. Just hoping that they don't hinder Carbine, since Gaffney has a good head on his shoulders and I think he will nail it and give us all what we want in some iteration.
  • #101

    (I'm posting this here from My thread with out the quotes, I feel it is very relevent to this thread and would like my other thread talking about me being exited for the game and it got derailed) 

    I think people that should want to farm for epic gear will still have their chance. The game does not have to be pay to win, or pay to be equivalent as the top raiding gear, or high tier heroic/hardmode/legendary dungeons. They could even make sure that the items in the Item store would be cool. If it is a mount, make it only sidegrades, and look different than the other stuff you have to farm for. at a certain outpost you could get a chopper, in the item mall the motorcycle would be a harley. Or the known mount could be something completely different and equally as awesome. my point is People that invest time in will have the ability to know what was bought off the item mall. They will know the player bought it and was not an acheivement. If the item mall makes the acheivment any less they did it wrong.

    Lets say you farmed hundreds of hours for a flying mount that fits the scene of the people who you farmed the rep for. People will know that you put work in the mount because it looks different from the item mall version, because both will be unique. and have the same stats. You can have people having different looking items, not buying the same items.

    Over all, if people want a mount bad enough and know the game well enough. People buy other peoples accounts all the time in this genre. Lots of people buy rushes. 

    There is no one stopping you from looking epic, just a different epic that is not in the store. Be aware that i am not asking for the game to be completely free to play. Make the game B2P with an item mall for stuff like

    convenience, Like EXP boosts, Instant res (one where you do not have to walk back to your body from a grave yard or shrine) other things

    Housing Items, but with Equivelant stats as the ones you can find.

    Different unique mounts, with the same stats. How ever do not look vastly better or worse than the ones you grind for. 

    Hide helm

    All these things people like Sythetic and Crystal could buy with their 15 bucks a month. Yeah all businesses are in it for money. But some people need to figure out how much profit is important compared to how many people are playing your game. Worst case P2P could make them far less money. (especially because they are using only word of mouth as marketing.  also IGN, PC Gamer and other Huge gaming sights have very little news on this game building hype.) IF this was marketed like Star wars the old republic, or WoW, or guild wars even. Marketing costs huge amounts of money WoW, And starwars spend hundreds of millions on their adds. and if they make the game B2P and a extremely sensible Item mall with just word of mouth and hitting up Streamers and Youtube personalities with early betas  

    You guys know what?

    B2P will be fine 

    5 dollars per new:

    5 man dungeons

    20 man dungeons

    8 bucks for:

    40 man dungeons

    40 bucks for the expansion and what ever that may include

    People working on patches and adding new PvP stuff would be supported by the item mall. People will be able to play any game any time they want. If they like the new dungeon they would buy it. 

    Doing it this way will make sure the qualities of the dungeons are superior  If people do not buy the dungeons then they need to figure out what will make the progression guilds want the dungeon and why. This will make the developer work hard on figuring out a sweet spot on perfecting the dungeon to the way players want it. Which will make the game more enjoyable for both the developer 

    Doing it this way will make the game not Pay to Win. Or Pay to look epic The game can take what they have learned from games in a similar model like battlefield 3, CoD, and Secret World. They can easily monetize the game with DLC of the new dungeons.(that will make the company announce the new dungeon, and build hype for the dungeon amongst the community and if done right could become extremely successful strategy.)

    and support balancing and PvP updates with the item mall for housing mounts and non-combat pets.

    doing all this, and having epic unique stuff for people that want to grind for that rep mount not found on the Item mall, Or the godly item you got from the latest raid. and because they monetize raids, why would they want to have an equivalent item in the mall with the same stats? They want people to buy the DLC, the dungeons. so their gear that can drop will have to be worth it.

    Looking to be as profitable as WoW is pie in the sky. aiming to be profitable is fine.

     

    all i get from your mindset of thinking an item mall will ruin the players value of items that you earn, or how fast you achieve a goal. There will be goals to achieve only by playing the game and be rewarded uniquely from the item mall. and people that pay 180 per year should be fine paying 180 dollars extra on the item mall and dungeon stuff. and they actually get some type of return for paying that instead of getting no reward for paying a big amount of money on one game. There are people that will spend more than that and people will pay less than that. The more people you get buying DLC and Items will in the end become more successful. And to do that you want more people to be playing your game. and to do that you want the world to be welcoming and to do that you will have to make sure the item mall does not make the player feel like their work is for nothing, and make it not pay to win.  To make the Item mall completely optional and awesome, get people to buy the new dungeons. I personally hate it when an MMO does not get updated all month, and no new content. I feel i wast money. And doing it in this method will make the dev team have to work hard and fast and push content out of good quality for it to be sold highly. and become extremely profitable. 

     Even I think this is extreme but because of the world they built i think would be worth 60 dollars to buy the vanilla version.  and paying extra on the new content when that comes around will be good for the people that are used to paying a sub fee. and people that just want to play the game as it was at launch will play it like they play the other games in genres that are multiplayer as well like battlefield and Call of duty. They end up paying roughly the same amount as people that pay for subs in MMO games and sometimes Like Battlefield get more content and more updates than even WoW.  

    Last edited by Gunghoe: 5/6/2013 11:58:50 PM
  • #102

    Ctrl+Alt+Del had a comic that I thought might fit into this topic...

    http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/

     

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